Bryan Joyner

THE OPEN ROAD

peace, love, happiness & understanding

July 7, 2022

(Note to readers: peace, love, happiness & understanding is going to be coming out on the first Thursday of every month, instead of every other Thursday.)

I met Bryan Joyner at Columbia River Correctional Institution (CRCI), in Portland. He came regularly to the weekly “Arts in Prison” group that I facilitated there for a number of years, through Open Hearts Open Minds (openheartsopenminds.net). He also was an enthusiastic participant in the Music Program that Matt Insley and I started there, along with Mark Mojdehi and Patrick Seraya. The OHOM’s Music Program is still going strong, under the guidance of Nate Query, who is the bass player for the Decemberists. Bryan got out of prison in May of 202O. In cooperation with Superintendant James Hanley at CRCI, Nate, Taiyah Marshal and David Pettinger did an extensive interview with Bryan, which is on YouTube. With Bryan’s permission, I have transcribed and edited a portion of the interview, especially for our friends in prison who don’t have access to the Internet.

Interview With Bryan Joyner

Bryan Joyner.  ….I like authentic music that sounds like itself. I don’t like copycatters, or people that mimic, and stuff. I stick to the originals—people that I think have good lifetime in their music, and make good music that I can relate to. I also listen to a lot of R & B, a lot of Soul Music, a lot of Seventies and Eighties. Those are my primary “go to” music to listen to. Gangsta Rap, that hardcore street stuff, kind of amplifies some of my negative anti-social behaviors that I don’t agree with anymore. So I don’t like to listen to that stuff, because that’s what it’s promoting. Whereas, R & B really makes you get in touch with that other side of yourself—it makes you really realize that love is important—more important than any of this other stuff. And that helps me with my personal point of view. So, when I’m comin’ at a rhyme, no matter what it’s about my personal point of view, I like to be calm. I want to be calm and I want to be grounded. I want to come at it understanding that people are going to listen to this; how is that gonna affect them? That’s important to me, as far as my presence, my presentation.

David Pettinger.  That’s really beautiful to hear.  When you talk about love and things like that—when do you find yourself looking for those moments of growth? And seeing that love can be healing? When do you look for it, and how do you reach levels of personal growth?

Bryan.  Uh, pain. Pain. When you see pain, love needs to be administered. When you see suffering, when you see pain. And pain can be interpreted on the external differently than from the internal. A lot of people can deal with a lot of pain, can cope—or not necessarily cope well—with a lot of pain. But if you can recognize that someone else is in pain, then you know that love is needed in that area, for that person. It probably is just as much needed for yourself in that area, as well. Self first. So, if you see pain and then you feel it, you can empathize with it, and you can recognize it. That is an area in yourself that you need love at, too. So, I think that’s how I recognize it.

I think by healing the pain in yourself, you involuntarily give people the permission to heal themselves as well—through the example of how the process works, and trusting in the process of healing. Because healing don’t happen like a snap of a finger. Man, it doesn’t. The pain still is there even after you heal. It’s just about really accepting that you can’t change it. And once you can do that, the process can begin.

Taiyah Marshal.  I think you touched on something that I think most people just walkin’ around in the world need to tap into, which is empathy—having real empathy for those who had various different experiences. It’s incredible how disconnected people can be nowadays. You have obviously gone through a lot. How have you reconnected and rounded yourself out? With writing? You say you’re not making music right now. You’re focusing on getting yourself together, which is completely understandable. How do you tap into that?

Bryan.  Uh, narcissism is a big aspect of the disconnection that the world is experiencing now. Being in love with things and feelings and thoughts, versus people. And yourself. The narcissist doesn’t feel what other people feel, because they’re distracted with their own ego, and creating a version of themselves that is beyond reality. And it’s just psychological. We all suffer from it, we all deal with it to a certain extent, because it’s part of the culture to be self-serving and to be the king in my house. It’s mine. It’s mine, it’s mine, it’s mine. Feeling empathy for another person is something that is a natural ability. It’s like breathing. Okay? It is breathing. When we were children we had no other ability than to empathize, and then cry. The only way a child can protect themselves is through the sense of empathy, through the sense of feeling, and hearing, and sensing danger. ‘Cause there’s no other defense mechanism that a child has. They don’t have claws. They don’t have sharp teeth. They can’t run fast. They’re not that smart. Y’know? There’s no way for them to defend themselves, except preemptively through empathy. They sense danger, or they sense safety, or they sense love. 

When you grow up in a world where everything is dangerous, or is perceived to be dangerous, you lose a sense of empathy and feelin’ things out, and you become more psychological—where things become labels. People become constructs to manipulate like a chess piece, like a pawn. And this is the type of behavior that is actually encouraged in our society from day one. Honestly. We’re living in a technological world where people don’t have to even see you to talk to you. Look at this! We ain’t even around each other, havin’ a whole conversation. The disconnect is part of the structure of society that we live in. So, honestly, in some way we’re ordered to be a narcissist, that dog-eat-dog mentality. “I gotta get mine, even if I gotta take it from you.” These kind of traits are encouraged. 

And loving traits are presented as being weak. Like, lame. A victim, y’know. You’re a victim if you care. If you help the old lady across the street. I have always had a sense of empathy, but once my personality took over, I was disconnected as well. And being incarcerated, it was like I was in a bubble. I realized that I am only gonna be able to eat what is in this bubble. So I started reading. I started meditating. I started praying. And what happened was I opened myself up. I opened up my heart chakra by doin’ that. My heart chakra was open and it still is, to the point where now those things that I used to purposely ignore—the pain from other people, the suffering—I started to let it in my bubble. And I started to realize there’s a connection we have with everyone that is intrinsic. It’s natural. It’s the same thing as the air that we breathe. We’re all breathin’ the same air. It’s the same. When the sun hits your skin and it hits mine, we’re both warm. ‘Cause that’s what the sun does. And empathy does that. It’s like a connecting bond that’s invisible. And so, it’s easy to take for granted because we live in a material world and we praise that materialism, and it creates a sickness of self-importance, self-grandiosity, selfishness, self-centeredness—that the world revolves around me. And that is a complete disconnect from what’s actually happening, which is that we all need each other—that the love that I feel for you is the love that I actually have for myself. And that’s why I’m reflecting it off of you. So I think that empathy is very important, and what I had to do personally to tap into that was to really take a look at myself, and how I was connecting with people. And I wasn’t connecting with people. I’m a know-it-all. And my personality was in full effect all the time. It’s like an alternate ego. It is an alternate. The ego is alternate from the self. You know what I mean? Bein’ my true self at this point of time in my life…I’m 41. I’ve basically been an egomaniac for 20 of those years—tryin’ to create this version of myself that was strong enough to live in this society. I survived. It did its job, and now it’s time to go home and allow God to point me in a direction, to show me the path. Period.

Taiyah.  First of all, I just want to commend you for all that self-awareness and self- growth, to be able to identify that and work on yourself is not an easy thing. You have to kill that ego. And I wish you the best on your journey.

Bryan.  Thank you very much.  

David.  One thing I was curious about is which sources of literature did you find to be the most helpful?

Bryan.  Oh, my gosh, I’m glad that you asked me that. This is somethin’ I’ll share for everyone, and this is somethin’, I’m tellin’ you bro, is gonna open you up. Check this out. One of the most inspirational and perception-altering books that I’ve ever read was My Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. He also wrote a book called Ishmael. And these two books together changed my life. Like, there’s a life before you read the book, and a life after you read the book. Those two books completely messed me up. It had broke down the mental constructs I had in my mind about what this world is, and what is intended. Another book that I read that was perspective and mind-altering was A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. He has another one called The Power of Now. They’re basically the same book, but one gives you the narrative, without anything—just gives it to you raw. And the other one is coming from a perspective of someone that’s unconscious, asking questions, and then the questions being answered by Eckhart Tolle. The material is pretty much the same thing, but if you’re one of those kind of people that have questions, The Power of Now is more for you, and if you’re someone that has already started the journey A New Earth would be easier to read. So, those four books were entirely transformative for me. The last book I will give you is The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. That story is about me. I can literally break down the chapters and the pages where…I’m tellin’ you, this guy is tellin’ my story, in a metaphorical way. And right now, just to compare that story, I’m at the end, in Egypt, gettin’ my ass beat by some guys who are tellin’ me that I’m a fool for bein’ out here lookin’ for a treasure. Right? And what I found was, the treasure is in me. Okay? That’s the metaphor of all that is that you already have the treasure inside of you. And that just changed the way that I look at everything. Those authors will be the people that I want to talk to personally, and just thank them for their expression in this world full of evil and hate and misery and suffering. Those are the gems that make life worth livin’ for me. And inside my little bubble, man, I just knew that there was a God. I just knew. If there were any doubts in my mind, there are none now at all. And my ego is in full effect, pushing everything away from me, only wanting what it wants, when it wants it, how I want it. And you can’t live like that and be at peace. You can’t just use people. You will never be at peace, ‘cause you gotta do the next thing to keep the manipulation goin’. You’ll never be able to rest, your soul will never rest. So bein’ in that state of constant high vigilance and constant alert, it is exhausting. It’s exhausting. Those are the books that really inspired me. Another person that inspires me is Prince. Rest in peace, The Prince. Shout out for Prince. That man was a genius! He was a genius. He had it. He knew some of the secrets to life. He knew. And I watch documentaries of him and it just blows my mind—the poise, the knowing that he has. The confidence in knowing those secrets. It just exudes from him in his aura. It’s beautiful. I hope that answers your question. (Laughs.)

David.  In talking about The Alchemist, it sounds like you feel very seen in that artwork. Is that something that you try to convey to other people through your music or different forms of expression?

Bryan.  Yes and no. There’s a side of me that doesn’t care what people think. I write the music that I like. But then there’s a technical side of me where it’s like: “Okay, what if somebody else listens to this?” Some of the messages that I implant in my music are personal, but I’m sayin’ it in a way where somebody else can pick it up, if they were interested. You can lead a horse to the water, but you can’t make him drink. And so I put water in it, but I don’t put the cup in there.

David.  I definitely really respect that approach to things. You’re telling your story, there are pieces for someone that should they so see fit to find out for themselves, they can.

Bryan.  Yeah. Absolutely. LOVE, as an acronym, is Letting Others Voluntarily Evolve. That’s the greatest kind of love that you can give a person is not to do it for them, but to allow them to figure it out on their own. And just be there for them when they fall down. Don’t try to prevent their experience. Like a little kid—if you don’t let them fall off their bike, they won’t grow up to buy a Lamborghini. Or a Buick. Whatever. Whichever they want to go for. But you can’t stop them from having that experience of falling off the bike because they need it in order to grow. And so, lovin’ someone sometimes is seein’ them feel pain, and empathizing with them, listening to what they have to say, being around them in a physical way, where you can put your arm around them. Not tellin’ them what to do, or doin’ it for them, or givin’ them the money that they need. It’s just really about just bein’ there, and feelin’ what they feel, and allowing them to release some of that, knowing that they connected with another person. And that’s what a narcissist will not do. They will not do that. As soon as they feel something they don’t want to feel—pheew!, they’re gone. It’s very important to feel those feelings with that person, and allow bein’ there for them to be how you love ‘em. Empathy is very important, and it’s comin’ back in style. I’m tellin’ ya! We just gotta keep on doin’ it. It’s gonna come back in style. It’s gonna be jazzy again.

Taiyah  ….What was the creative process able to look like while you were in?

Bryan.  ….They had the Music Program. That’s where I met Nate at. And Nate brought in  his bass guitar, and they would play the tunes, and we would just make up…it would just be like freestyle, on the fly, whatever come up, however your vibe is feelin’. And, y’know, I really connected with Nate, because he’s just sincere. I mean, it is what it is, and he’s just authentic and genuine. He doesn’t say much, but when he’s talkin’ he means it. That was something that I picked up instantly. We were able, on a musical vibe, to get to know each other very fast. There’s still a lot I need to learn about him as friends, but this guy—there’s some things he ain’t got to say that I know. (Laughs.) Nate is amazing! You know what I mean? And I always respected how he found the time to volunteer and bring himself in, his vibe, y’know, his love. Bring in love. That’s basically what it was. And he was showin’ love and he was showin’ a sense of empathy, and not only feelin’ what we felt, but allowing us to feel what he felt. That was the most awesome part of it all—was the receiving of genuine love. That was how I perceived it at the time, and it really was something that I looked forward to every Monday morning, early. That was a really good experience for me being incarcerated—to have that outlet. That outlet. Outlet. Out let. In a prison, which is captive, to have an outlet makes all of the difference of the experience of being incarcerated. Having that outlet. That was the best part. So, even though I don’t do music in prison, at that point in time I was doin’ music in prison. It was happenin’. I was just as sharp, I was just as good. Maybe the content was a little lacking, because of the confinement mentality. Sometimes that can happen in prison. But all of the swag was there, the flow was there, it was all good. You run out of things to talk about sometimes, but if you’re bein’ honest, you don’t run out of things to talk about. And live instruments, for me—it’s like havin’ a conversation. And if you’re bein’ honest, you can talk about it. If you gotta make it up, and you gotta think about it—there’s a difference in that. The writing process in prison versus out of prison is completely different. It’s more restrictive in prison. It’s more limited, as far as influence and subject matter. But it’s pretty much the same as long as you’re being honest.

….Prison is a business. Okay? It’s a business. They’re not in the business of rehabilitation. They’re in the business of storage. So, to not rehabilitate somebody is a definite flip—in money. You flip that money if that person goes back out and does the same thing again. That money just got flipped. Okay. You lose money in this business if someone heals themselves. So, the promotion of healing in any kind of way, creatively or cognitively, is very important. It’s crucial, ‘cause not only does the person suffer, the community suffers as well. And we’re only as healthy as our sickest part of our community. People on the outside can point their finger and say “those people are bad,” while they steal from their job every day and get away with it. “Ah, look at those guys. He’s such and animal.” And she’s cheatin’ on her husband. Prison gives a place where people can point the finger and feel good about themselves that they’re not there, because they don’t do “those” things. But we’re all connected. So these types of programs, whether it be music, art, poetry, comedy, business planning—all of these things are healing tools and they need to be administered to prisons. ‘Cause it’s basically sick in there.

David.  I really appreciate that answer….Are there more things we could be doing to push Columbia River?

Bryan.  Stuff like this. Talkin’ to people that were there, gaining true insight into the mentality of the participants, broadcasting it, getting the footage and showing the community what this is and getting the community support out in any kind of way, shape or form—from any venue, any merchant, any citizen that is willing to participate and support it. Find the guys that were in the program and keep in touch with them. If they have the talent, if they have the skills, if they have the desire to better themselves, keep in touch with them. Pull them into the programs that are facilitating these type of things. Eventually, I want to get permission to come back in. And once I come back in, boy, I’m down to earth. We’re gonna make this happen. If you’re really about that, I will be able to tell by your energy, by your vibe. I’m gonna be feelin’ you, and I’m gonna understand where you’re at, where you’re comin’ from and, if there’s somethin’ there, where you’re goin’. I’m gonna be able to understand that, and I want to. A lot of the young brothers looked up to me because of my consistency—the fact that I was consistent, that I wasn’t making up stories, that it was always like this with me. I would love to participate and join the movement. For real. And I’m still part of the movement. I haven’t been back to prison since. I got myself together. I’ve been on a spiritual journey of really detaching from my past. Attachments! And freeing myself psychologically and emotionally, so that my spirit can grow. 

A lot of these guys are on that journey and have no clue. They just have no insight, or anything to reflect off that that’s what they’re going through. All that they know is that they love music and when they do it they feel free. (Laughs.) That’s all that they know, so they show up. And that’s the beginning. That’s the beginning of being in connection with God. When you do the thing that you love to do, you fall into a state of prayer, a state of connection with God. Because there’s nothin’ else happenin’. The past doesn’t exist. The future is not there. You’re just locked into now—the moment of. And in that moment you are being your true self. There’s no ego there. There’s no constructs. There’s no sense of time. You ain’t worried about no bills. Nothin’ else is happening. And that is like meditation. Music can be a meditative practice. 

Share with the community. Allow people to experience these individuals that have important places in our society that they’re not allowed…they’re not bein’ able to hone that skill, that inner peace, that sense of worth in themselves. And when someone is interested in what you say: “Hey, we want to give you an interview. We wanna hear what you have to say.” Even for me. I was like, “For real? You care? You wanna know? What? Me? Me? You wanna know what I think? Wow!” And to be incarcerated, and have that same type of privilege—that person will walk with their head up high. They’ll know that they have something that they’re connected to, that they can do good, that will ultimately give them a sense of self-worth, of self-importance, of value. It may be superficial, in a way, but just “in a way,”—not really. If that person is a narcissist, tryin’ to feed their ego, it will be superficial. But a person that is really trying to figure out this thing called “life,” that is like a milestone. That is like a touchdown—in a game that they were losing a hundred to zero. And to walk out of that building with at least seven points feels better than just straight getting skunked.

Taiyah.  I want to take it back to you, because you’re on your spiritual journey. I want to hear what are some affirmations, or practices that you do in your day-to-day, to stay in the now, to stay in the present, and just amplify that positive energy.

Bryan.  I would say: meditation. Meditation, for me, is listening—to God. It is when you let your thoughts do what they do, and don’t hold onto them. You don’t grab one, and turn it all around and look at it from every angle, try and dissect it. You just kinda let it go by. And let ‘em all go by, all of the things, all of the clutter. It comes to a point where you don’t hear it anymore. I work every day, and something that I always tell myself is that I gotta do it. I gotta do this for myself. I have to make sure that I’m okay. It’s my responsibility to make sure that I’m okay. And right now I’m understanding the dynamic of my ego versus my soul. And that my persona is not healthy. So, I’ve been praying a lot. My favorite prayer is: “Thank you, God. Thank you, God.” It’s my favorite prayer. It seems to be the simplest prayer, but it’s more complicated than that—for me. And when the things happen for me that I don’t want to happen, or that I didn’t expect to happen, or that I was tryin’ to prevent from happening, I still say: “Thank you, God. Thank you. Thank you, God.” That is an affirmation for myself that has been the balancing factor in my life. And it has taken my spiritual practices at this point of time in my life and allowed them to land on something solid. Whereas, though, the void in my heart was…I was just trying to throw everything in there. I threw people in there! I threw my daughter in the void. I threw my girlfriend in the void. I was tryin’ to fill that sucker up with whatever I could get my hands on—whatever I could put in that void to not feel it. And then I realized that the only thing that will close the void is God. That’s the only thing that can fit in there and completely take it away. And that’s an affirmation. Only God can heal me. Only God can fulfill me. Only God can complete me. Only God can make me whole again. Those are affirmations that I believe in, and I say to myself, periodically throughout the day, that allow me to re-calibrate, to re-focus, to get back in accordance. Sometimes I’ll be in lapse, and don’t even know it. I’ll be complaining. I’ll be disgruntled—“Man, who do you think…? Why would they do that?”—kind of attitude. And then I gotta take a step back and say: “Whoa. Thank you, God. Just thank you for lettin’ this happen. This is a ‘you’ thing, not a ‘me’ thing.” And it allows me to let go of psychological, egotistical, narcissistic control of trying to make things what I want them to be versus what they are—and what they will be, naturally. 

For example, I’m at a homeless shelter, and I’m on the bottom bunk, and this other guy needs the bottom bunk. Now, I’m six-two, two hundred and forty pounds; what the hell I look like climbing up a goddam bunk on the top? Right? But this guy needed it. And so, instead of me complaining and manipulating the situation to where I keep the bottom bunk, I just said, “You know what? Let him have it.” Y’know? “Thank you, God. Thank you God for whatever this is about. Thank you.” And I was able to let that go. But, ironically enough, I needed to get around to a couple places because I don’t have a car, and this guy was like, “I’ll take you.” (Laughs.) What a coincidink! You know what I’m sayin’? But it’s not. It’s life! It’s not a reward, it’s not special, it’s not magic—that’s the way God works. And sometimes we block our own blessings by trying to make it what we want it to be versus what it actually is. 

So, writing, meditating, praying, reading are daily practices. Listening to music. I love R & B and stuff like that. If there’s somethin’ new and hot, I’m on it, I’m lookin’ for it. My day-to-day just consists of praying, meditating, and focusing on the next thing to do by writing it down. And reading the literature that I need to read to understand what I need to do next—stuff like that. It’s really simple. It’s complicated to some. They just don’t want to do it. It’s hard to stay focused on one thing too long. For me, it’s just about bein’ humble, man, just appreciating life for what it is right now. Going day by day and just be the best me I can be right now. And stayin’ in that energy as long as I can before that other energy pop up, like: “What they think they lookin’ at? Who do they think they are?” I still got that in me. I think we all do at some point in time, but for me it’s about keepin’ that guy in check. And also loving that side of myself, so that I can heal. We got a side of ourself that we really don’t show everybody, because we don’t like it. We keep it to ourselves. And after a while that water gets stagnant, and the mosquitos start coming, and it gets all infested and nasty inside of ourselves. We’re 90% water, so we have to have a constant influx and flow of energy inside of us to go out. We have to have those outlets that mean something to us, that are actually outlets. Because meditation might be an outlet to me, and to the next person it’s not. But I know that meditation is definitely healthy, that’s somethin’ I can bank on, that’s going to be 100% good for me. You can never meditate too much. Meditating, sitting in one spot, letting your thoughts go by, and tryin’ to listen to what God got to tell you. I mean, sounds legit to me, so that’s what I do. (Laughs.)

David.  That’s really beautiful to hear. I really have been enjoying this conversation. I feel like there’s a lot of things that, as a society, we need to hear. And I feel a lot of this is resonant to me, like your spiritual journey. If feels very healing and good to hear—sharing all these things.

Bryan.  Thank you, guys.

Nate.  Bryan, I’m still here too, and, man, I really appreciate you goin’ deep on everything you have to offer. You’ve really given me a lot to think about and I really appreciate your doing this.

Bryan.  Thank you, bro. I really appreciate you inviting me in. It’s been a pleasure. There was nothin’ that I said that I felt embarrassed about, or apprehensive. I just told the truth. I just told you what I know. Sometimes I felt like I was going a little bit off track, I just tried to dial it back and bring it back home.

Nate.  Nah, man, you’re good.

Bryan.  Thank you, brother. I appreciate you, man.

The full interview is on YouTube:

peace & love

Johnny